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Re: [Distutils] Working toward Linux wheel support

From: Nate Coraor <n...@bx.psu.edu>
Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:26:44 -0400
On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 3:38 AM, Nathaniel Smith <n...@pobox.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Robert Collins> <robe...@robertcollins.net> wrote:> > On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Nathaniel Smith <n...@pobox.com> wrote:> > ...>> >> Of course if you have an alternative proposal than I'm all ears :-).> >> > Yeah :)> >> > So, I want to dedicate some time to contributing to this discussion> > meaningfully, but I can't for the next few weeks - Jury duty, Kiwi> > PyCon and polishing up the PEP's I'm already committed to...>> Totally hear that... it's not super urgent anyway. We should make it> clear to Nate -- hi Nate! -- that there's no reason that solving this> problem should block putting together the basic> binary-compatibility.cfg infrastructure.>


I've been working on bits of this as I've also been working on, as a test
case, building out psycopg2 wheels for lots of different popular distros on
i386 and x86_64, UCS2 and UCS4, under Docker. As a result, it's clear that
my Linux distro tagging work in wheel's pep425tags has some issues. I've
been adding to this list of distributions but it's going to need a lot more


So I need a bit of guidance here. I've arbitrarily chosen some tags -
`rhel` for example - and wonder if, like PEP 425's mapping of Python
implementations to tags, a defined mapping of Linux distributions to
shorthand tags is necessary (of course this would be difficult to keep up
to date, but binary-compatibility.cfg would make it less relevant in the
long run).

Alternatively, I could simply trust and normalize
platform.linux_distribution()[0], but this means that the platform tag on
RHEL would be something like

Finally, by *default*, the built platform tag will include whatever version
information is provided in platform.linux_distribution()[1], but the
"major-only" version is also included in the list of platforms, so a
default debian tag might look like `linux_x86_64_debian_7_8`, but it would
be possible to build (and install) `linux_x86_64_debian_7`. However, it may
be the case that the default (at least for building, maybe not for
installing) ought to be the major-only tag since it should really be ABI
compatible with any minor release of that distro.


> > I think the approach of being able to ask the *platform* for things> > needed to build-or-use known artifacts is going to enable a bunch of> > different answers in this space. I'm much more enthusiastic about that> > than doing anything that ends up putting PyPI in competition with the> > distribution space.> >> > My criteria for success are:> >> > - there's *a* migration path from what we have today to what we> > propose. Doesn't have to be good, just exist.> >> >  - authors of scipy, numpy, cryptography etc can upload binary wheels> > for *linux, Mac OSX and Windows 32/64 in a safe and sane way>> So the problem is that, IMO, "sane" here means "not building a> separate wheel for every version of distro on distrowatch". So I can> see two ways to do that:> - my suggestion that we just pick a particular highly-compatible> distro like centos 5 to build against, and make a standard list of> which libraries can be assumed to be provided> - the PEP-497-or-number-to-be-determined approach, in which we still> have to pick a highly-compatible distro like centos 5 to build> against, but each wheel has a list of which libraries from that distro> it is counting on being provided>> I can see the appeal of the latter approach, since if you want to do> the former approach right you need to be careful about exactly which> libraries you're assuming are present, etc. They both could work. But> in practice, you still have to pick which distro you are going to use> to build, and you still have to say "when I say I need libblas.so.1,> what I mean is that I need a file that is ABI-compatible with the> version of libblas.so.1 that existed in centos 5 exactly, not any> other libblas.so.1". And then in practice not every distro will have> such a thing, so for a project like numpy that wants to make things> easy for a wide variety of users, we'll still only be able to take> advantage of external dependencies for libraries that are effectively> universally available and compatible anyway and end up vendoring the> rest... so in the end basically we'd be distributing exactly the same> wheels under either of these proposals, just the latter requires a> much much more complicated scheme for metadata and installation.>> And in practice I think the main alternative possibility if we don't> come up with some solid guidance for how packages can build> works-everywhere-wheels is that we'll see wheels for> latest-version-of-Ubuntu-only, plus the occasional smattering of other> distros, varying randomly on a project-by-project basis. Which would> suck.>> >  - we don't need to do things like uploading wheels containing> > non-Python shared libraries, nor upload statically linked modules> >> >> > In fact, I think uploading regular .so files is just a huge heartache> > waiting to happen, so I'm almost inclined to add:> >> >  -  we don't support uploading external non-Python libraries [ without> > prejuidice for changing our minds in the future]>> Windows and OS X don't (reliably) have any package manager. So PyPI> *is* inevitably going to contain non-Python shared libraries or> statically linked modules or something like that. (And in fact it> already contains such things today.) I'm not sure what the alternative> would even be.>> This also means that projects like numpy are already forced to accept> that we're on the hook for security updates in our dependencies etc.,> so doing it on Linux too is not really that scary.>> Oh, I just thought of another issue: an extremely important> requirement for numpy/scipy/etc. wheels is that they be reliably> installable without root access. People *really* care about this:> missing your grant deadline b/c you can't upgrade some package to fix> some showstopper bug b/c university IT support is not answering calls> at midnight on Sunday = rather poor UX.>> Given that, the only situation I can see where we would ever> distribute wheels that require system blas on Linux, is if we were> able to do it alongside wheels that do not require system blas, and> pip were clever enough to reliably always pick the latter except in> cases where the system blas was actually present and working.>> > There was a post that referenced a numpy ABI, dunno if it was in this> > thread - I need to drill down into that, because I don't understand> > why thats not a regular version resolution problem,unlike the Python> > ABI, which pip can't install [and shouldn't be able to!]>> The problem is that numpy is very unusual among Python packages in> that exposes a large and widely-used *C* API/ABI:>>     http://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/c-api.html>> This means that when you build, e.g., scipy, then you get a binary> that depends on things like the in-memory layout of numpy's internal> objects. We'd like it to be the case that when we release a new> version of numpy, pip could realize "hey, this new version says it has> an incompatible ABI that will break your currently installed version> of scipy -- I'd better fetch a new version of scipy as well, or at> least rebuild the same version I already have". Notice that at the> time scipy is built, it is not known which future version of numpy> will require a rebuild. There are a lot of ways this might work on> both the numpy and pip sides -- definitely fodder for a separate> thread -- but that's the basic problem.>> -n>> --> Nathaniel J. Smith -- http://vorpus.org>

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