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Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

From: Tarek Ziadé <tar...@ziade.org>
Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:04:37 +0200
On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote:
...
>> I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation>> needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard>> *description* could be used by any tool>> It's not clear to me what you mean by description. Package metadata, > install information or description of what/how to build?>> I hope you don't mean the latter, that would be insane...it would > effectively amount to creating a build tool that's both more elegant > and more powerful than any option that's currently already out there.>> Assuming you mean the former, that's what David did to create Bento. > Reading and understanding Bento and the design decisions going into it > would be a better use of time than redoing a discussion, and would at > least be a very good starting point.

What I mean is : what would it take to use Bento (or another tool) as 
the compiler in a distutils-based project, without having to change the 
distutils metadata.


>> But anyway, some project types from simple to advanced:>>  - Simple library using Cython + NumPy C API>  - Wrappers around HPC codes like mpi4py, petsc4py>  - NumPy>  - SciPy (uses Fortran compilers too)>  - Library using code generation, Cython, NumPy C API, Fortran 90 > code, some performance tuning with CPU characteristics (instruction > set, cache size, optimal loop structure) decided compile-time

I'd add:

- A Distutils project with a few ExtensionsThe other thing is, the folks 
in distutils2 and myself, have zero
>> knowledge about compilers. That's why we got very frustrated not to see>> people with that knowledge come and help us in this area.>> Here's the flip side: If you have zero knowledge about compilers, it's > going to be almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about a > compilation PEP. It's very hard to discuss standards unless everybody > involved have the necessary prerequisite knowledge. You don't go > discussing details of the Linux kernel without some solid C experience > either.
Consider me as the end user that want to have his 2 C modules compiled 
in their Python project.

>> The necessary prerequisites in this case is not merely "knowledge of > compilers". To avoid repeating mistakes of the past, the prerequisites > for a meaningful discussion is years of hard-worn experience building > software in various languages, on different platforms, using different > build tools.>> Look, these problems are really hard to deal with. Myself I have > experience with building 2-3 languages using 2-3 build tools on 2 > platforms, and I consider myself a complete novice and usually decide > to trust David's instincts over trying to make up an opinion of my own > -- simply because I know he's got a lot more experience than I have.>> Theoretically it is possible to separate and isolate concerns so that > one set of people discuss build integration and another set of people > discuss installation. Problem is that all the problems tangle -- in > particular when the starting point is distutils!>> That's why *sometimes*, not always, design by committee is the wrong > approach, and one-man-shows is what brings technology forwards.

I am not saying this should be designed by a commitee, but rather - if 
such a tool can be made compatible with simple Distutils project, the 
guy behind this tool can probably help on a PEP with feedback from a 
larger audience than the sci community.

What bugs me is to say that we live in two separate worlds and cannot 
build common pieces. This is not True.

>>> So, I reiterate my proposal, and it could also be expressed like this:>>>> 1/ David writes a PEP where he describes how Bento interact with a>> project -- metadata, description files, etc>> 2/ Someone from distutils2 completes the PEP by describing how setup.cfg>> works wrt Extensions>> 3/ we see if we can have a common standard even if it's a subset of>> bento capabilities>> bento isn't a build tool, it's a packaging tool, competing directly > with distutils2. It can deal with simple distutils-like builds using a > bundled build tool, and currently has integration with waf for > complicated builds; integration with other build systems will > presumably be added later as people need it (the main point is that > bento is designed for it).
I am not interested in Bento-the-tool. I am interested in what such a 
tool needs from a project to use it =>

"It can deal with simple distutils-like builds using a bundled build 
tool"  => If I understand this correctly, does that mean that Bento can 
build a distutils project with the distutils Metadata ?

If this is the case it means that there a piece of function that 
translates Distutils metadata into something Bento deals with.

That's the part I am interested in for interoperability.



>> Dag> _______________________________________________> Python-Dev mailing list> Pyth...@python.org> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev> Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ziade.tarek%40gmail.com

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