On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote:
...
>> I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation>> needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard>> *description* could be used by any tool>> It's not clear to me what you mean by description. Package metadata, > install information or description of what/how to build?>> I hope you don't mean the latter, that would be insane...it would > effectively amount to creating a build tool that's both more elegant > and more powerful than any option that's currently already out there.>> Assuming you mean the former, that's what David did to create Bento. > Reading and understanding Bento and the design decisions going into it > would be a better use of time than redoing a discussion, and would at > least be a very good starting point.
What I mean is : what would it take to use Bento (or another tool) as
the compiler in a distutils-based project, without having to change the
distutils metadata.
>> But anyway, some project types from simple to advanced:>> - Simple library using Cython + NumPy C API> - Wrappers around HPC codes like mpi4py, petsc4py> - NumPy> - SciPy (uses Fortran compilers too)> - Library using code generation, Cython, NumPy C API, Fortran 90 > code, some performance tuning with CPU characteristics (instruction > set, cache size, optimal loop structure) decided compile-time
I'd add:
- A Distutils project with a few ExtensionsThe other thing is, the folks
in distutils2 and myself, have zero
>> knowledge about compilers. That's why we got very frustrated not to see>> people with that knowledge come and help us in this area.>> Here's the flip side: If you have zero knowledge about compilers, it's > going to be almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about a > compilation PEP. It's very hard to discuss standards unless everybody > involved have the necessary prerequisite knowledge. You don't go > discussing details of the Linux kernel without some solid C experience > either.
Consider me as the end user that want to have his 2 C modules compiled
in their Python project.
>> The necessary prerequisites in this case is not merely "knowledge of > compilers". To avoid repeating mistakes of the past, the prerequisites > for a meaningful discussion is years of hard-worn experience building > software in various languages, on different platforms, using different > build tools.>> Look, these problems are really hard to deal with. Myself I have > experience with building 2-3 languages using 2-3 build tools on 2 > platforms, and I consider myself a complete novice and usually decide > to trust David's instincts over trying to make up an opinion of my own > -- simply because I know he's got a lot more experience than I have.>> Theoretically it is possible to separate and isolate concerns so that > one set of people discuss build integration and another set of people > discuss installation. Problem is that all the problems tangle -- in > particular when the starting point is distutils!>> That's why *sometimes*, not always, design by committee is the wrong > approach, and one-man-shows is what brings technology forwards.
I am not saying this should be designed by a commitee, but rather - if
such a tool can be made compatible with simple Distutils project, the
guy behind this tool can probably help on a PEP with feedback from a
larger audience than the sci community.
What bugs me is to say that we live in two separate worlds and cannot
build common pieces. This is not True.
>>> So, I reiterate my proposal, and it could also be expressed like this:>>>> 1/ David writes a PEP where he describes how Bento interact with a>> project -- metadata, description files, etc>> 2/ Someone from distutils2 completes the PEP by describing how setup.cfg>> works wrt Extensions>> 3/ we see if we can have a common standard even if it's a subset of>> bento capabilities>> bento isn't a build tool, it's a packaging tool, competing directly > with distutils2. It can deal with simple distutils-like builds using a > bundled build tool, and currently has integration with waf for > complicated builds; integration with other build systems will > presumably be added later as people need it (the main point is that > bento is designed for it).
I am not interested in Bento-the-tool. I am interested in what such a
tool needs from a project to use it =>
"It can deal with simple distutils-like builds using a bundled build
tool" => If I understand this correctly, does that mean that Bento can
build a distutils project with the distutils Metadata ?
If this is the case it means that there a piece of function that
translates Distutils metadata into something Bento deals with.
That's the part I am interested in for interoperability.
>> Dag> _______________________________________________> Python-Dev mailing list> Pyth...@python.org> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev> Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ziade.tarek%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Pyth...@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/python-dev-ml%40activestate.com
Recent Messages in this Thread |
|
Éric Araujo |
Jun 19, 2012 09:46 pm |
|
mar...@v.loewis.de |
Jun 22, 2012 03:24 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 03:48 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 23, 2012 02:14 pm |
|
Stephen J. Turnbull |
Jun 23, 2012 08:02 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 04:56 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 22, 2012 01:24 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 22, 2012 06:42 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 22, 2012 07:11 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 12:01 am |
|
Hynek Schlawack |
Jun 28, 2012 11:09 am |
|
Ethan Furman |
Jun 19, 2012 10:09 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 19, 2012 10:14 pm |
|
Guido van Rossum |
Jun 20, 2012 04:36 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 09:27 am |
|
Hynek Schlawack |
Jun 20, 2012 11:20 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 11:29 am |
|
Éric Araujo |
Jun 20, 2012 03:34 pm |
|
Georg Brandl |
Jun 20, 2012 03:44 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 04:24 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 19, 2012 10:54 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 19, 2012 11:34 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 01:23 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 20, 2012 05:00 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 09:04 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 09:18 am |
|
Victor Stinner |
Jun 20, 2012 06:36 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 20, 2012 07:36 am |
|
Georg Brandl |
Jun 20, 2012 07:09 am |
|
Dirkjan Ochtman |
Jun 20, 2012 07:32 am |
|
"Martin v. Löwis" |
Jun 20, 2012 08:18 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 08:55 am |
|
Dirkjan Ochtman |
Jun 20, 2012 09:05 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 09:12 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 09:22 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 09:49 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 10:30 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 10:39 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 10:54 am |
|
Georg Brandl |
Jun 20, 2012 11:06 am |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 20, 2012 09:51 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 09:54 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 10:34 am |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 20, 2012 11:19 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 11:31 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 20, 2012 12:53 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 20, 2012 01:10 pm |
|
Alexis Métaireau |
Jun 20, 2012 01:19 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 20, 2012 01:28 pm |
|
Alexis Métaireau |
Jun 20, 2012 01:36 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 12:00 pm |
|
Alexis Métaireau |
Jun 20, 2012 01:16 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 20, 2012 01:47 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 20, 2012 11:11 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 20, 2012 11:46 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 20, 2012 01:02 pm |
|
Bill Janssen |
Jun 20, 2012 02:46 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 20, 2012 05:29 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 03:57 am |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 04:44 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 08:45 am |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 21, 2012 09:28 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 11:58 am |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 21, 2012 12:19 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 12:31 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 11:48 am |
|
Oscar Benjamin |
Jun 21, 2012 12:07 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 12:21 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 12:51 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 01:29 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 02:12 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 02:30 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 02:59 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 03:48 pm |
|
Jesse Noller |
Jun 22, 2012 04:12 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 03:45 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 04:02 pm |
|
Chris Lambacher |
Jun 21, 2012 03:17 pm |
|
Barry Warsaw |
Jun 21, 2012 02:08 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 21, 2012 01:45 pm |
|
Barry Warsaw |
Jun 21, 2012 01:57 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 02:09 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 09:08 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 11:56 am |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 12:45 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 01:23 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 02:26 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 07:05 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 08:46 pm |
Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3 |
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 09:04 pm |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 21, 2012 09:55 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 10:42 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 10:05 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 21, 2012 10:25 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 21, 2012 10:00 pm |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 21, 2012 10:32 pm |
|
Alex Clark |
Jun 21, 2012 01:56 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 01:31 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 21, 2012 02:03 pm |
|
Zooko Wilcox-OHearn |
Jun 21, 2012 03:02 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 21, 2012 03:10 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 03:37 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 03:50 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 04:03 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 04:26 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 04:44 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 05:20 pm |
|
Alex Clark |
Jun 21, 2012 05:43 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 05:49 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 06:49 pm |
|
Chris McDonough |
Jun 21, 2012 05:56 pm |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 21, 2012 07:17 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 21, 2012 08:01 pm |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 21, 2012 08:34 pm |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 21, 2012 09:38 pm |
|
Alex Clark |
Jun 21, 2012 11:34 pm |
|
Stephen J. Turnbull |
Jun 22, 2012 06:25 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 22, 2012 06:30 am |
|
Tarek Ziadé |
Jun 20, 2012 09:17 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 22, 2012 08:40 pm |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 22, 2012 01:48 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 03:36 pm |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 22, 2012 01:47 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 12:09 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 23, 2012 01:37 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 23, 2012 01:28 pm |
|
Barry Warsaw |
Jun 22, 2012 12:14 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 22, 2012 02:19 pm |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 23, 2012 02:24 pm |
|
Tim Golden |
Jun 22, 2012 12:23 pm |
|
Stephen J. Turnbull |
Jun 22, 2012 12:39 pm |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 23, 2012 11:57 am |
|
mar...@v.loewis.de |
Jun 28, 2012 11:56 am |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 23, 2012 11:53 am |
|
Lennart Regebro |
Jun 23, 2012 11:55 am |
|
Alexandre Zani |
Jun 22, 2012 05:09 pm |
|
Floris Bruynooghe |
Jun 23, 2012 10:52 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 10:38 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 23, 2012 12:35 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 23, 2012 01:14 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 23, 2012 12:48 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 23, 2012 01:20 pm |
|
Terry Reedy |
Jun 22, 2012 08:55 pm |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 09:06 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 22, 2012 10:28 am |
|
Paul Moore |
Jun 22, 2012 11:27 am |
|
Antoine Pitrou |
Jun 22, 2012 09:55 am |
|
Alex Clark |
Jun 22, 2012 01:13 pm |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 09:11 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 22, 2012 06:29 am |
|
Nick Coghlan |
Jun 22, 2012 05:05 am |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 23, 2012 11:13 am |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 23, 2012 12:27 pm |
|
Barry Warsaw |
Jun 22, 2012 12:20 pm |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 22, 2012 09:52 am |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 10:09 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 10:35 am |
|
Vinay Sajip |
Jun 22, 2012 07:56 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 09:38 am |
|
PJ Eby |
Jun 22, 2012 08:11 pm |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 22, 2012 08:35 pm |
|
David Cournapeau |
Jun 22, 2012 10:20 am |
|
Donald Stufft |
Jun 22, 2012 08:05 am |
|
Dag Sverre Seljebotn |
Jun 22, 2012 09:22 am |